Something very interesting occurred to me as I was typing up my responses to the “Feminism, Capoeira, Cultural Appropriation, & Black Self-Determination” discussion. The funny thing is that after I published and reread what I’d written, I realized that my “epiphany” was actually a really common and oft-argued viewpoint. So common and oft-argued, in fact, that I’d never felt terribly interested in discussing it on here before. But thanks to that conversation, I ended up arriving at this one point from the complete opposite side. It felt exactly like the difference between arriving in China by plane, and arriving in China through a tunnel you started digging in your own backyard.
(*For context and background information, before continuing, I strongly recommend you first click here and read the original discussion):
In the very wide-ranging, thought-provoking, and possibly inflammatory conversation we’ve all been sharing in, several points have been brought up in direct reference to capoeira, such as cultural appropriation, changing or ditching tradition and bringing in your own values, and focusing on what you like and distilling out the rest.
Now, what I realized—is it just me, or does that describe exactly what happened in the development of capoeira regional?
If Greg Downey’s Learning Capoeira is correct, and if I recall it correctly, he wrote that regional is faster, flashier, and more focused on kicks and acrobatics because that’s what the majority demographic of its practitioners were interested in. This demographic consisted of middle-to-upper-class, white students who urged or convinced Mestre Bimba to concentrate more on the martial and acrobatic aspects of capoeira in their learning, while simultaneously encouraging him away from the ritualistic and traditional aspects, out of disinterest. At the same time, these students possibly incorporated one or two things they had learned from previous martial art experience, as well.
So if you think about it, it really seems like capoeira regional was created precisely through cultural appropriation, infusion of own values, and discarding of under-valued aspects by “outsiders” to capoeira’s original community—but still with the help and cooperation of part of the community itself. Yet, it was because of precisely such changes that capoeira had its big explosion, paving the way for regional and thus opening up opportunities for angola’s revival later…paving the way for capoeira, period.
So, where does this leave us? With the conclusion that capoeira regional “is not capoeira”? Or is that an example of change happening from within a community…yet with outsiders’ “help”, or “hybridization” (and if so, does that legitimize those concepts to at least a certain extent)? Or is it just a fact of life to accept—that things change, in and of themselves (especially considering, moreover, that we haven’t lost the “original” [if one takes angola as that] despite such change)?
Mandingueira 
To kick things off, I’m transferring over Angoleiro‘s response to what I said on the other thread:
What you said about Mestre Bimba’s students and the evolution of Capoeira Regional is actually exactly my opinion (it is mentioned in the intro post of the African Roots series). Since the 19th century and especially since Mestre Bimba had white students the influence of white people on Capoeira did grow. And this, there you are right, did trigger a response of the “Black movement” in Capoeira, Capoeira Angola. So without Capoeira Regional spreading all over the world I wouldnt have learned Capoeira Angola today. Is Capoeira Regional still Capoeira? Of course it is, it does actually have still a lot of elements important for Capoeira (e.g. its music, the roda, the game). On the other side there are things it lost (its rituals, parts of its playfulness, its magic, a lot of malicia (in my opinion)). The question which I cant give an answer to is: When does it stop being Capoeira? Well, at least this video is a definite not-Capoeira for me: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pVU_b9T77LQ . But there is another thing we learn out of that, that is: Capoeira is not a closed community which can block of any outside influence. Capoeira does influence people, and so as it also gets influenced by them. It is, of course, also in permanent danger of loosing what it was and getting something new. Loosing its traditions, its fight for freedom, its value for people under pressure, its socially strenghtening effect, its playfulness and its music (and so much more) is sth which has to be avoided. What Angoleiros are engaged in is a permanent struggle against loosing these roots – and I think since the 80’s they have done a good job!
Hey Joaninha! good to see that you actually picked up this part of the big discussion from the other post and made a new thread out of it. I think that this topic “What is Capoeira in Capoeira Regional?” or “How much is in it” and so on is a discussion going on every day between Capoeiristas of all schools. Is there a real answer to it? I dont think so, but it is definitely worth discussing it: raises awareness and does always lead to some surprisingly different views of the recent history of Capoeira. So keep on going: I am certainly curious what kind of comments I am gonna read here!
I have to agree with you.
Senzala added several more elements to Capoeira than Bimba did. I think Bimba gets too much flack for adding his two cents in it when others came after him and made huge changes.
You know there are several aspects of Capoeira that never survived that we will never know about. I am sure that if one of them was to pop up somewhere and make it outside of Brazil, several of us will say “that’s not Capoeira….” So I am real careful about that.
I know my school teaches the martial aspects of the art. When we play with other schools, some people don’t dig that. They claim we are not Capoeira. I have realized that there are some teachers who just don’t teach that part for whatever reason. However, I don’t say “you guys are not capoeira…”
I have learned that I play Capoeira, whether its Angola, Regional, Miudinho, or whatever. I play Capoeira. All that other philosophical stuff, in the roda, goes out the window.
again, great post
hey dantresomi. I agree with you that Capoeira does have the martial arts in it and it is not wrong to play hard in the roda. Though I was wondering: what do you exactly mean with “…All that other philosophical stuff, in the roda, goes out the window.” ?
Thanks for your comments, guys.
Danstresomi, I like what you said about how we’d never know if some previously buried aspect of capoeira resurfaced again, and we all condemned it thinking it was out of nowhere! Really makes you realize how much we really don’t know…
Haha Angoleiro, trust you to pick out that one line ^^” Just for my two cents, maybe that means that when someone’s actually playing in the roda, you’re not actually thinking about tradition and theories, but purely focused on what’s happening in that one-moment-right-here-right-now-what-are-you-doing-what’s-the-other-person- doing?
I was just going tow rite something like:
“If you never had ‘one’ capoeira, if you’ll never know what the original was – how then can you know what is not capoeira? This discussion is doomed to fail as there is no answer.”
And there is no answer. Or at elast no ‘one’ 😉
But I wanted to comment on that video ‘cardio capoeira’.
If we look at it, of course it’s not capoeira. But why? Because they try to make money out of capoeira? Because the teacher is white? Because they don’t wear abadas? Because their skills are poor?
That can’t be it. Lot’s of capoeira groups would no longer be ‘capoeira’
I know what it is. There is no roda. That is what makes capoeira. A roda.
Think about it. Did you ever have a training without a training? Yes? Me too. It sucked. I didn’t feel like I did capoeira that day.
But when is a roda a roda?
When I meet a friend on the beach and just the two of us get a game going. No music. Is that a roda? Is that capoeira?
Did you notice how I not mentioned Angola or Regional?
To me they are not the same, but saying that one is capoeira and the other is not is just brainless. Saying that one is (more) original than the other is brainless too. Even in the case of a ‘true’ angola group versus a ‘true’ Regional group. One may stick more to traditions, the other may more stick to the inherent quality of capoeira that is it’s ability to adapt to different situations. Senzalas, quilombos, favelas, Salvador, Rio, Recife, slavery, prohibition, no slavery, nor prohibition … do you really think capoeira was the same everywhere?
Rediculous!
ahh… let the games begin! alright, first to you, Joaninha. you say that dantresomi meant this absolute concentration on the moment when you are in the roda as having nothing to do its philosophy. If that is so, then I have to object. cause the roda does consist of more than the abolsute rushing moment of action-reaction-reaction-action-hit-fall. It is how you approach your partner, the malicia in the game, being able to communicate, being able to fool and so on. a lot of things that actually have something to do with a capoeiristas point of view for life. a lot of things which do have history, too. we just do not realize it when we are in the roda. but that’s not because it’s not there. it is because we dont watch carefully. that’s what I think about philosophy and the capoeira roda.
and now to you xixarro! alright, your reply to this discussion, I sum it up with “nobody can say what capoeira is and what original capoeira does look like” is quite modern these days. everybody says “Capoeira has changed so many times, so you cant say what it is and what not.” and “do not judge what is more original than others, cause there is no original”. this attitude is quite easy when there is no “evidence” of how the old capoeira did look like. evidence being things like videotapes, descriptions and so on. but there are. I dont only mean Rugendas description out of the year 1825 where you have already music, a circle of people, and cabecadas and the term of “jogo” I also mean the old mestres. Those dudes did learn it from their mestres and those from theirs and so on. I agree that Capoeira is very variable and did change over the centuries, but I do also see that in the last say 50 years Capoeira did change much stronger than before. It has a higher mutation rate, so to say. This has different reasons, one being the vast numbers of people who now teach and learn capoeira, the other being that the teaching system changed into an academy system, another is that we have modern media to “learn” from and and and. Important is that the more Capoeira changes the more things will drop along the way. Today it was the traditions, yesterday the chamada dropped away, and tomorrow we wont have the music anymore (“Common, who does want to learn all that Berimbau-shit these days”). And where does this lead to? Exactly, to a non-Capoeira. It’s like in Biology. The more mutations there are between a population and its ancestral population the higher the chance that they cant interbreed aka that a new species evolves, which IS different from the original one. And that’s what Angoleiros are worried of. We just don’t tolerate the loss of anything, because hey, who does tell you that the traditions is not more important than the fighting aspect, or the music, or the play?
P.S. did I exaggerate with this comment? I think it’s a bit too long 😉
1) “in the last say 50 years Capoeira did change much stronger than before”
Everything changed faster the last 50 years, why should capoeira be an exception?
2) I know you’re worried about capoeira changing, especially when considering ‘traditions’. You just have to keep wondering what does traditions are. It’s a coincidence that you should mention the berimbau, an instrument that wasn’t originaly used in capoeira….
hoi… yep, you are right, in the kast 50 years a lot of things changed. But is a change always a good thing? or do things get lost on the way? I am certainly not against progress (otherwise I’d had to quit my job) but I see that in Capoeira it’s worth keeping some of the traditions. compare the Capoeira scene 30 years ago with the Capoeira scene today. Since Angoleiros started to find their place in the scene more and more people do start enriching their “modern” Capoeira with elements out of traditional Capoeira. This makes Capoeira richer although it is kind of a “backstep”, right? Or do you think it gets worse?
And you are right, of course I am worried about losing traditions. After all, I am an Angoleiro. We are per definition taking care of the traditions of Capoeira. Of course you are right that Capoeira did not always have e.g. a berimbau and that certain movements might have been introduced somwhere between Africa in the 16th century and Bahia in the 1930’s. That’s what I say, of course Capoeira did change over the centuries, but if nobody would care Capoeira in 50 years will be just another a) fitness sport b) martial art c) folklore dance. and that’s what we do. we take care that people dont forget where Capoeira came from and what it had. Change does happen in Capoeira Angola, too. It’s not about being against change. It’s about the awareness that things might get but shouldnt get lost.
Don’t get me wrong angoleiro, I like traditions too. And if there had been an angola club in my town, I would be an angoleiro too. But I think we should be fair: it’s not just the angoleiros that are keeping up with traditions. Lot’s of groups do a lot effort to keep capoeira what it is and popularise it at the same time. And even introduce other folk elements like maculelê, samba en puxada de rede to other cultures.
Those extreme excesses are done by loners who just try to make money out of capoeira. In the first place i think of people like in the video mandingueira mentioned, but also the so called ‘mestres do avião’. Brazilians who hardly know capoeira, but decide to start teaching it in USA/Europe/… On the way here they suddenly become ‘mestre’ or whatever.
Still those are loners. I’m not worried about capoeira devolving. People who play capoeira tend to travel around, meet people, learn other stuff,… Even the most hardcore Regional player will sooner or later see Angola and learn what it is all about. And in the end appreciate both for what they are.
Beginners cannot not know what’s what and so they may think that doing only floreios and post them on youtube is actually capoeira. Beginners cannot judge if there teacher is good or not. But in time they will find out.
Conclusion: there is a lot of things going on that makes your eyebrow go *oink* and yes there will be ‘variations’ on capoeira that we would never call capoeira – but I’m 100% sure that ‘normal’ capoeira will go on to exist and will remain the mainstream capoeira.
PS: why is it that (only) angoleiros think/claim capoeira started in Africa and not in Brazil?
Yeah, I remember that you said once you’d have been an angoleiro if there actually would have been an Angola group in your place. that’s often the case anyway. I am still quite worried that there is only one Angola group in the Netherlands (I mean, common!).
Well, anyway, you are right. I shouldnt have put it like “Angoleiros do take care, Regionalistas not”. Actually there is a high variation in the degree of traditionalism in modern Capoeira groups. And I do respect their efforts to keep Afrobrazilian culture and especially Capoeira alive. Respect!
What is important Angola groups is that a very important part of their program is keeping the traditions alive. The Capoeira Angola MOVEMENT only came to existence when Regional became overpowering and when people started saying that the traditional Capoeira, call it Capoeira Angola, is extinct. In the beginning of Regional, traditional Capoeirista didnt see that coming. So there was no need for a specific Capoeira Angola movement, to keep alive the traditional way of vadiacao right?
And you are right, Capoeira as we know it today will keep on existing. And to ensure that we Angoleiros do continue our struggle 😉
About Capoeiras start in Africa. I actually dont understand that other people refuse the idea of Capoeiras start in Africa. I mean, yeah, in Africa you wont see Capoeira. Capoeira as we know it today did went through 500 years of Brazilian history. But where did its movements and its music and its concepts come from? from Africans, right? So I think it is not about believing in its African roots or not, but about the emphasis. When did Capoeira time begin? With Capoeira 1825 or with the African dances and martial arts which came from Africa? or somewhere in between? Angoleiros, as self-proclaimed keepers of African tradition in Capoeira, do of course emphasize the second, the African roots of Capoeira, as its beginning.
OK, and now I am off for holidays!
Hey Xixaro, great to have a discussion with you! Actually we kind of were the only ones discussing here, but hey, maybe other’s will join. I’ll look it up when I’m back 😉
Cheers!
Wow, you guys really got going here!
I agree with you Angoleiro, about philosophy in the roda…maybe I just didn’t make myself clear enough! I didn’t mean that none of that is involved…I meant to say that when you’re in the roda, you might be drawing on malicia, but your mind will be concentrated on the actual act of using malicia itself, not thinking, “I should use malicia because it’s a traditional aspect of capoeira…or is it? What is traditional? Where did malicia come from?” ! 😛
I too wanted to say it seemed unfair to say that regionalistas don’t care =P We DEFINITELY would mind capoeira becoming just a “folk dance” or cardio exercise or robotic martial art!
As for the whole “Africa vs. Brazil” as point of origin, that’s another HUGE jump-off point for discussion…I think it really depends on, and I wanted to mention this in the conversation with Kimbandeira but haven’t gotten around to it yet, depends on at which point you consider capoeira to have become capoeira. Because nearly everything up till that point would be “pre-capoeira”, right, not capoeira itself but capoeira in formation? So it depends on if you think the form in Africa was already capoeira, or if it didn’t “really” become capoeira until after a few more decades in Brazil. There’s no doubt the roots are in Africa, but the main point of contention seems to be whether it’s just roots, or more that was developed before it arrived in Brazil.
See you later, Angoleiro!
Have a good holiday Angoleiro.
1)The way you put it, I don’t see any difference with how non-angoleiros see where capoeira came from.
“Capoeira was created in Brazil, but most of the ingredients came from Africa.”
(You can’t say all, but let’s not get into that in this topic 😉 )
2)I’m not informed enough about the Angola movement, so I can’t discuss profounder about this topic. Let’s just stick to that you and I and many others will try to keep capoeira as it is – each in our own way. 😎
Cheers
Regarding the last part of Point 2—nicely said, Xixarro! 🙂
p.s. Loved the mutation metaphor Angoleiro XD
hey joaninha! believe me, this mutation metaphor can go farther! 😉
Welcome back, Angoleiro! =)
Sorry to come into the discussion late but its a great topic started here. While reading your post it made me think of this t-shirt I just bought that shows the morphing of capoeira from an Angolan martial art form to a Brazilian art form and with similarities to some African-American breakdance movements. (this is the shirt I’m talking about: http://casadiculture.bigcartel.com/product/%C3%9Cber-retro-tee). I have always been interested in what part of cultural forms are traditionally maintained and what parts become “diluted” due to its popularity. I think everything is meant to develop and evolve- its the way nature works. For me, the problem only comes when the origins and history become ignored and manipulated. For anyone to say that capoeira didn’t start in Africa and is a true participant of the martial form is mistaken. I dont think that capoeira started in Brazil with only Angolan ingredients. I think it started in Angola and continued in Brazil. (The same argument can be made for other art forms in other various diaspora cultures).
gosh i have to blog about this…
My point: when someone walks into a mei lua de compasso and is knocked flat, there is not philosophizing in that.
Trust me, any woman will tell you, brother Omi will philosophize himself into your bedroom but I know the deal.
Coming up as a slap boxer, i have heard folks write poems of our bouts (much like capoeira, there is a rhythm, we dance, and there is a circle with people urging us on), but in the end it comes down to how you rock in that circle.
I am not saying that it doesn’t exist but there is a place for it.
Dantresomi, if there is no place for philosophy in your game, then why should you philosophise at all?
Either you’re new to capoeira and you just don’t see it yet, either you don’t know the way you play is based on your philosophy. Playing ‘to rock’ in every roda is a philosophy as well.
I’m not going to tell you how you should play in a roda and I’m not going to tell what your philosophy should be like, but the day you see the match you’ll know there’s philosophy in every game.
hey dantresomi… I know what you mean (or at least I think I know). you wont start a philosophical discourse in the roda. you play there. but the whole play is based on a philosophy, right? e.g. the concept of malicia: this is not only a fancy way of getting the edge in the game, it is meant as a lesson for life, right? as a kind of guideline, like “don’t let yourself fooled”, “hide your intentions”, “try to read your partner/opponent/enemy/friend before he reads you” and so on… these are all in there. you might not think about it while playing, but you act according to the principles of capoeira philosophy in the jogo. so, yes, philosophy does have an existence in a Capoeira roda…
on the other side, there are big differences between philosophers (big heads on weak bodies) and Capoeiristas, who don’t think about questions like “is beauty true or is the truth beautiful?” but “how do I get through this” “how can I change my/her/their situation” and so on… and this is just due to the history of Capoeira (being persecuted for hundreds of years doesnt leave you much time to think about beauty or the truth…)
Hey guys! It’s been a long while since i was on the site…sorry. But I’m back-ish.
My reply…it’s all Capoeira to me. That simple. I know this argument can go on for centuries to come but my answer will inevitably be the same. Capoeira is meant to change and reshape and form itself in to many different things. it was never one martial art and never had a single mestre that was an exact copy of his mestre. It’s meant to change! TKD? No dice. it will alwys be boring old TKD, but Capoeira, now that’s exciting because its ALWAYS new to me. I love it.
Hey Renata,
Thanks a lot for commenting! I apologize for my delay in response. That’s a great t-shirt you linked to, and a great point you made about how change is necessary, but not at the complete expense of ALL of the history and traditions of something. I’d be interested to learn more about the other diaspora art forms you mentioned, too.
To Dantresomi, Angoleiro, and Xixarro,
I think it really depends on semantics here and how you look at it or say it. So, you are all right, depending on how you word things. There IS philosophy in the roda in the way that everything you do is based on philosophies like malicia, mandinga, rituals, traditions, “metaphor for life”, etc. There is NOT philosophy in the roda in the sense that when you’re actually playing, you are not “philosophizing” but playing. Though you may be *using* malicia, you are not necessarily *thinking* about the concept of malicia and how it’s affecting your play—you’re more likely thinking something along the lines of “queixada this way, make her role, troca, martelo”. It’s a fine distinction I know, but I think that’s what settles the difference…
Hey Pipoca,
Welcome back! Haha you know what, it’s been a long while since I’ve been on this site, too. ><” So apologies returned, and great comment!!
I do not agree Joaninha. I don’t think it’s just a matter of semantics. I do philosophize during a game, not just playing based on a philosophy.
e.g. Capoeira has a distinct philosophy about respect amongst players, different graduations and visitors. When I start a game with someone I have already checked for myself what the appropriate thing to is. But when someone buys the game I need to do it during a game.
Also I have to check wheater the other one is playing according that same philosophy or not. Does he/she not, I have to evaluate how to react.
So by giving you this one simple example I hope you now do see that there IS philosophy during a game and that it is not just a matter of trying to outsmart the other one.
And the more you get to know about capoeira, the more you should philosophise DURING each game you play. Most things you’ll do automatic once you know it, but still you should always consciously reflect on what you’re doing, when you’re doing it. If not, and I repeat my question, why would you philosophise at all?
Xixarro
I found this post extrememly interesting in relation to my interest about the nomadic nature of culture. Culture within itself is transcient; so coming to one single conclusion about this is difficult.
There’s a cool shirt that depicts the evolution of capoeria I found from Casa di Culture: http://casadiculture.bigcartel.com/product/%C3%9Cber-retro-gray-yellow
I’m with Xixarro on this one – and I think it’s something you’ll understand more as you get more time in capoeira, Joaninha. Through my own experience and those of others, I know that players definitely pass through stages of perception and philosophizing in the roda.
The metaphor I’ve used to describe it is this (forgive me if I’ve already written it on this site before):
1. Capoeira is a language, and when you begin learning, your first priority is just pronouncing the words right (i.e. your goal is to do a meia lua without falling over).
2. Once you know a few words, then you begin using them in BASIC dialogue – which is reactionary. Your response depends on what the other person does. It’s analogous to having a normal verbal conversation with someone. This stage lasts for years as your dialogue – your responses – get more and more developed. There is also progress made in the stage 1 area, as the technique of your individual movements improves through much repetition. At this stage, your goal might be to do a meia lua at the right time in the game, and to read the other player so that they are surprised by your meia lua.
3. When you’ve reached the point where you can “converse” in the roda WITHOUT thinking about the words/phrases themselves (i.e. they are in your muscle memory, no longer actively in your mind), then your mental abilities are freed up so that you can do things like create situations to set up a particular move. It’s analogous to talking with someone and thinking, “I’m going to try to make the other person say the word ‘apple.'” At this stage, your goal might be to not JUST read but rather actually CONTROL the other player so that eventually you put a meia lua out there and you don’t kick them but instead they have no option except to run themselves into your foot. I’m betting this stage takes even longer than the previous one.
4. Finally, you reach a point where you can control not just the other player’s movements, but also their emotions, the whole scope of the game, and even the audience. This is akin to having a complex conversation with someone and actually steering the whole conversation around to a particular point, or winning them over to your point of view through the use of subtle persuasive techniques as opposed to outright argumentation. It’s like if you have a great idea that your boss is resistant to, but through lots of careful talking and guiding of the reasoning process, you get your boss to implement the idea because he/she “came up with” this great solution themselves.
These stages aren’t exclusive and there is some overlap, but as you can see, the amount of philosophizing increases with each one. By the time you reach stage 4 (and I am only guessing, because after 7 years of capoeira I am just *beginning* to move from stage 2 to 3), you are playing almost exclusively with your mind – and on a higher level than just thinking a few moves ahead.
Make sense…?
Hi Marisol, thanks for the link! I think it’s the same one that Renata posted earlier, too 🙂
Xixarro and Shayna, yes I think you guys are right and I think I tried to “conclude” the issue a little too hastily! Also, Shayna, that is such an amazingly good analogy and explanation, it makes me almost want to be wrong about more things purely for all the extra enlightenment I would get out of your corrections! =)
I have to credit M. Manoel for helping it to clearly crystallize in my mind. We played two games at the FICA conference this past weekend, which were so frustrating and humiliating that afterwards I was close to tears. Later I asked him what I could have done better and all he would say was, “You’re still playing with your body, and not enough with your mind.”
My immediate thought was “But I WAS playing with my mind. During the game I was constantly thinking about what moves to try and what strategy to adopt, since my ‘normal’ ones were failing.” But I think he was alluding to a deeper level of mind game. So, reflecting on that was what really brought out the fine points in the analogy…
Wow, what happened in those two games that made them so upsetting for you?
That makes even more sense when you put it that way…I hear the phrase “thinking too much” a lot in class!
Great comparison Shayna – thanks!
hey joaninha,
there is thinking and there is thinking. in the beginning, people think too much about their movements while playing capoeira. that’s when they not only have no idea about the game and have no capacity to think about it, but this thinking too much about it is also hindering your body to find its own way to do a certain movement. thinking about the game as advanced capoeirista is completely different. your body is already doing those movements, so you use your remaining mental energies to try to lead the game. this is when malicia comes in again:)
Yuuup, got it 🙂
Shayna…that was a profound explanation. I’m stealing it and showing that to my friends for sure. Sorry, you don’t have a choice! 😛 lol